Searching. The old school way.

[DM Bob]

General searching is discouraged. Not exactly sure how the newer editions handle it, but I need a bit more detail as to where you start looking in a room... for instance, searching a section of wall, floor, bed, etc... has an amount of time involved.

Everyone who participates needs to give me an intention of sorts, even if it's, "I don't participate in X action." Unless you give me a standard operating procedure.

This is incredibly important when the party splits, as I'm keeping track of where you are whether or not the map is updated. If there's a scare, threat, treasure, etc...

[DM Bob]

From the 2E DM Guide concerning secret doors:

"Searching a 20-foot section of wall takes about 10 minutes, during which the characters tap, thump, twist, and poke, looking for secret catches, sliding panels, hidden levers, and the like. The exact amount of time can vary according to the amount of detail on the wall. A relatively barren wall section will go fairly quickly, while one loaded with shelves, ornamentation, sconces, and other fixtures will require more time. A character can search a given wall area only once, although several characters can search the same area.

Normally, when a character discovers a secret door, he has found the means to open it. Therefore, no roll must be made to open the door. In very rare cases, the character may discover that the secret door exists (by finding its outline, for example) but not know how to open it. In this case, a separate check must be made to open the door.
Secret doors cannot be forced open by normal means although they can be bashed down with rams (at half the normal chance of success). Indeed, it is even possible for characters to see the secret door in operation and not know how it is operated. ("You burst in just in time to see Duke Marask, the vampire, disappear from sight as the sliding bookcase swings back into position.") In such cases, knowledge that the door exists will increase the chance of finding its opening mechanism by 1."

[DM Bob]

I also played a lot of 1E under a relatively strict DM growing up. So yeah, I get that I can be a bit OCD about the whole deal. But it really helps me keep things in sync.

[Attilius]

Jun 18, 2021 21:31:50 GMT DM Bob said:

General searching is discouraged. Not exactly sure how the newer editions handle it, but I need a bit more detail as to where you start looking in a room... for instance, searching a section of wall, floor, bed, etc... has an amount of time involved.

The group enters an area that has something hidden or secret within. In 5E you assign a Difficulty Class (DC) number on a D20. The higher the number the harder it is to see/find. For example a DC10 = something is hiding under a pillow and easily found if searched for. DC25 is usually the super hidden secret squirrel shit only Sherlock Holmes can easily find. The player then either says one of 2 things. 1) I'm looking around but not touching anything for 5 minutes, which then you would say roll a perception check. They roll a D20 and add their perception skill. If they meet or beat the DM's DC #, they spot it (IF IT'S SPOTABLE). 2) Now if touch feely hands on SEARCHING is needed to find something, I.E. a false back within a desk drawer, the player would need to say I'm going through EVERYTHING and turning the room upside down, or just be very specific about something in particular (going through the desk for example). In which case the DM would say: It'll take you X amount of minutes, please roll a Investigation check. And the player(s) searching would have to meet/beat the DC of the hidden "something".

[DM Bob]

I know the 3.5 way. Which seems similar to 5E.

In 1E and 2E, getting very descriptive was the trick. For instance a friend of mine was looking for secret doors in an abandoned tomb. He would take powered chalk or dust and drop it where he thought there might be "air flow" between a possibly hidden door and floor.

In Caverns of Thracia (one helluva module, BTW) a lot of the doors were plastered over. So looking for discoloration specifically might help.

That's when you assign bonuses - if it seems like it applies.

Gygax was big on secret doors in odd spots, like in a pit trap. You generally don't want to fall in those, so why not put the door in there? It's generally about a 1 in 6 chance to find 'em. If you know the door is there, it usually just takes time to find the trigger. With a party of 6+ players you will generally find most hidden doors if you all search, take your time and canvas the entire dungeon. The only issue is time to be honest. There are of course spells that can speed this up.

[DM Bob]

This thread also applies to how I deal with proficiencies. No generalizations, gimme specific uses, etc...

Even if you don't have a skill in something? If you give me a detailed post to how your character attempts a task? I'll generally award bonuses or the chance to do XYZ.

[Skrye [AC3; 48/48HP]]

The matter with elves/half-elves in Dark Sun is that they don't have the innate skill to spot secret & hidden doors per se.
I believe only 1 kit in the Elves of Athas has it, and it's a multiclassed one.

[Quila Oris (John M.)]

Dec 30, 2021 5:30:48 GMT DM Bob said:

This thread also applies to how I deal with proficiencies. No generalizations, gimme specific uses, etc...

Even if you don't have a skill in something? If you give me a detailed post to how your character attempts a task? I'll generally award bonuses or the chance to do XYZ.

While I understand in principle what you're saying, and I think that I know where you're coming from (the pelts trade talk and relevant NWPs to dressing one properly for getting the right price), I do have questions on how you see that play out.
I'm approaching it from player feasibility, which for me has two aspects.

One is that I do not know as player what you as gamemaster have in mind in what is possible or not. I don't have real problems with this aspect, as in the short amount of time I've played with you as GM I do have the feeling you are aware of this and do your part.

The other aspects which I do feel is a bit problematic is the fact that as a player I have to deal with an NWP, and an NWP description, that is almost always terse, often to the point of being underdetermining applicability within real play situations. Sometimes me as a player just don't know as a human being what else could be involved with an NWP like Hunting, Cobbling, Survival, or whichever example you want to take, simply because I miss the specific domain knowledge and expertise. Simpler said: often I don't know what the hell I'm talking about or what I'm even supposed to be doing to reach a goal or get to a desired outcome (i.e. a dressed/cleaned/cured sandhowler pelt that I can sell for a lot of silver).

In this latter aspect I see a problem, since your requirement on giving specific uses seems to presume that one would know what one is talking about. Which is often not the case unless you somehow have some IRL experience with a subject / domain / skill.

[Quila Oris (John M.)]

Posting this here cos of thread pollution otherwise. It's related to the discussion here.

Dec 30, 2021 4:32:18 GMT DM Bob said:

Given time and a successful check? You could make all manner of things from pelts. Moccasins, gloves, belts, cloaks, etc... Your imagination is the limit. Well that and how complex you make the task.

Can you explain a bit more how you mean this? Cos when I check that NWP I see a different mechanic (=no check needed).

PHB said:

Seamstress/Tailor [1 slot, dex -1]
The character can sew and design clothing. He can also do all kinds of embroidery and ornamental work. Although no proficiency check is required, the character must have at least needle and thread to work.

Is it because the no check requirement is for any common item? And that those kinds of items would only be common or for your own usage? Or do you need a roll for when you want to sell an item? Or for it to be of exceptional quality, or masterwork? But making, for example, 'merely serviceable' white pelted sandhowler gloves, does not end up with a result that you can sell to a trader? Was your quoted 1 silver the price for white pelted sandhowler gloves (which emphasises the rarity) or is it for an exceptional / masterwork item of said material?

I'm not trying to be dense or asinine about this at all, just trying 1) to understand it better how this would work; 2) making sure we don't fubar other income sources for the party in the future by doing stuff we are unaware off having an impact.

Thanks Bob!

[DM Bob]

While successful without needing a target number? I'd still have a roll done for end quality/results (much like weaponsmithing, armorsmithing, art or singing, etc...)

[DM Bob]

Sorry missed the posts above the last one. Consider my stubborn old habits. I grew up on 1E and the 2E transition.

I used to (still love to) run games with no proficiencies. It's actually my favorite form of running 1 or 2E. Dark Sun, being late 2E and on the threshold of 2.5/3.0, is very proficiency-centric; to take away that? I'd have to redo a lot of things I enjoy in the specific setting. I know a few of you played in my Caverns of Thracia play-by-post... I enjoy the old school feel of at least trying to roleplay having those skills. And with Google, wikipedia and modern day internet? You can often learn a ton or enough to detail out a post enough to sound pseudo professional. Take ancient rope making. I spent an afternoon pulling pics and notes and thought about how it would equate to an ancient Athas and then the less water covered current land.

Try humoring these quirks and I generally throw a bonus. If I say something doesn't work, but you can find something to back it up regarding your skills? I can totally be swayed.

In other words, anything is possible. But you can totally stack the odds for things to be more likely to happen. I'll almost always throw a die or have you throw one if you attempt something cool.

[Quila Oris (John M.)]

Thanks for your insightful and in-depth replies Bob!

It's true that play-by-post does have the added benefit of being able to do research inbetween to detail your post with a good description.